Commenting.


COMMENTING
Due to the move of the blog to Wordpress posts from Jan 2012 onward will have commenting disabled (when I remember to do it)
Cheers - AE

Thursday, 10 February 2011

Punish the innocent, lest the guilty go free.

Over at Smoking Out The Truth an interesting question has been asked.
If I smoke in a pub, the landlord runs the risk of prosecution. Is this fair? Is it right that a completely “innocent” person should suffer for the actions of another?

I have been trying to come up with another law that follows this same pattern. The nearest I can come up with is the seatbelt law, where a driver is responsible for his passengers. However, in that case a car is an extremely small space and the driver is well aware as to who has a belt on, and who hasn’t. A publican can be working in the bar, while I am smoking in the lounge and the only way he becomes aware of my protest is by entering the room.

Is the smoking ban unique in this respect? Is it the only law where a person can be convicted without even being aware that a “crime” has been committed?
It didn't occur to me at the time but I know of one very similar law, and have even blogged on it a couple of times (see here and here). The first of those relates to the story of a doctor in Perth whose Lamborghini was confiscated for 28 days after his mechanic was accused - not convicted, notice, just accused - of reckless driving by doing 160 km/h in a 90 zone. Last November I saw something that made me intend to revisit this but unfortunately I forgot. The interesting news then was that the driver, Leone Magistro, was found not guilty. So to recap, the owner, Dr Nugawela, lost his car to a police impound yard for four weeks not just for something he wasn't aware of, present for or able to control, but in fact for something which could not be proven to have happened at all. How did they get it so wrong?
Dr Nugawela told The Sunday Times the officers who stopped the car had told him they had estimated the speed and did not have a printout from a radar device.
An estimate? They took someone's car over an estimate of its speed? Boggle.

The second time I blogged this subject goes back to last year's Melbourne Grand Prix and will probably be familiar to both my readers in Britain (hi Mum) since it concerned Lewis Hamilton acting like a bit of a cock by burning some rubber on a public road. In that case they just confiscated 'his' car for a couple of days but as I said at the time,
... of course it's really not his car at all. What would a Briton living in Switzerland being doing owning and running a car in Melbourne? The car was of course a loaner, apparently courtesy of a local dealership. So what these tough 'anti-hoon- laws have achieved here is fuck all apart from confiscating the private property of a wholly innocent third party. Lewis Hamilton is a very wealthy man and will not suffer from even the most OTT fine any court here will be able to impose, and since he won't have a Victorian licence points are a non-issue as well. It will be an embarrassing incident for him but that's at least as much thanks to the media as the police, the courts or these ridiculous laws. The only person who's really being punished is the owner of the car, which being a company is probably not suffering too much but nonetheless has had it's property confiscated despite having done absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Somewhat prophetically I also asked:*
What if it's not a rich man's toy like a Lamborghini but a tradesman's work vehicle, and he can't work until he gets it back? What if it's not a dealership loaner but 'Mum's taxi' needed for all sorts of errands that would then have to wait for at least two days?
Prophetic because I've just come across yet another instance of this happening, and this time it was indeed someone in his mum's car getting it confiscated for 28 days.

Western Australians have a broader idea of 'Mum's Taxi' than you find in Britain
Now there's not much disputing that the driver is not a saint.
It is understood the driver, from Darling Downs in Perth's south-east, was behind the wheel and was carrying a friend as a passenger, despite his licence being suspended two days earlier.
But we can see that's a two seat ute. If his friend was the passenger then clearly his mother couldn't have been in the car, had no way to see that he was driving so fast, and had no way of telling him to slow down. Unless she had actually given him permission to use the car in the knowledge that he'd been suspended, which is possible but seems out of the range of normal behaviour when you live in a state that takes your car away at the drop of a hat, what possible justification is there for punishing the mother? Especially as the WA government said they'd change that law after the Dr Nugawela / Leone Magistro case so that they no longer punished innocent owners.



Er, so what the fuck happened to the amendment then? And yet again, even if it's admitted that someone guilty of no crime has been punished through this stupid and iniquitous law it's all too late. The guy was pinged by a camera on New Year's Eve and according to this the car was seized on the 8th of Jan and he appeared in court on the 3rd of this month. The case was adjourned until March 4th since his lawyer was on holiday and he felt he needed the legal advice.** And how does this help his temporarily carless mum? Not a fucking bit - she'll have been allowed to take it back again by now, but no matter what happens it can't be un-confiscated. She was, just as the pub landlords being discussed over at Smoking Out The Truth are, being held responsible for the actions of another person. Both might be expected to wield some influence over the offending parties but they can't be expected to maintain a presence at all times, or indeed to physically prevent the law being broken if they do happen to be present - normally considered to be the job of the police in any case. Yet the law makes no allowance for this and will punish them all the same, perhaps even to a larger degree than the person actually committing the offence. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, which is pretty unfair given how huge, complex and incomprehensible the law in most places is these days. And now ignorance of an offence even occurring  is held to be no excuse either.

That's just something, alright. But it's not justice.

* I was doubly prophetic that day since I also suggested that eventually someone would fight the driving offence and be found not guilty, but that it would be no benefit to the owner who would already have been deprived of his car for however long before going to pick it up. I had no idea at the time that in one of the two cases that prompted the blog this would indeed be what happened, even though Leone Magistro always denied speeding.
** Oh? Ya think?

Comments (8)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
Similar thing happened to me. My brother allegedly stole a pizza from my local sainsbury and now i am barred for life. I am totally innocent- summary justice - great innit!
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Vividart, was that from the courts (ASBO or something?) or Sainsbury's being dicks? If the courts then colossally unjust. If the latter, well, still colossally unjust of course, but we're in the sticky area of property rights. I can tell SamCam and Sarah Brown they're not welcome on my property just because I loath their husbands. Unfair and unreasonable of me, but it is my property. Don't know what to suggest if that's your situation - organise a boycott or a petition, maybe a solicitor's letter. Most satisfying would be to get them to cave and admit they're wrong in writing, and then carry on shopping elsewhere anyway. On the other hand if it's an ASBO you're stuffed. To me they look like a licence to make the law up as they go along and change it to mean something different when it applies to you. The new not-an-ASBO from the Cobbleition doesn't sound much different.
There are a number of pieces of legislation which have been enacted in Australia recently which I believe have (or can have) similar consequences as you have described. As examples consider "the Chain of Responsibility Legislation" which can or may be enacted on the transport industry. A few years ago (pre drought etc) I grew wine grapes and at harvest time the Transport Department comes out with their heavies to say that if any transport contractor overloads his truck, not only will the truck driver be guilty of the offense but also the grape grower, harvest contractor freight company and winery if it accepts a truck which is overloaded and fines can be imposed on the business and personally on the management of the various enterprises.

I would like to see this type of legislation imposed on the operators of the Wivenhoe Dam who were clearly negligent in having the dam at full capacity at the start of the wet season. Anyone who has a rainwater tank knows (or should know) that it is necessary to draw down the water levels to be able to capture the new water. The trick is to balance the amount to draw down in the likelihood of low rains. I expect the insurance companies would be looking at recovering some their costs from the dam operators.

Similarly, Mike Rann's Bikie legislation is the thin end of the wedge. Rann also says that he will make sure that Von Einem, who is apparently eligible for parole, never goes free while he is Premier.

Why do we have a judicial system with a Premier who is prepared to create laws to suit himself and then be Judge and Executioner.

Unfortunately we are all too busy just trying to make a living without watching all the lying politicians and others setting themselves up for life.

Enough of a bitch, i'm off to have a beer or three to cure my depression.
2 replies · active 737 weeks ago
Why am I just starting to notice that a lot of these people are fellow poms? Mike Rann - born and raised until 9 in the Sidcup area of London. Julia Gillard - born and raised until about 5 in Barry, S. Wales. Stephen you-can't-see-that Conroy - born in Cambridge, came here aged 10 or so. This WA Police Minister, Rob Johnson, came here in his 40s having already been in local politics in England for ten years. Was that on the needed skills list back then, more bloody politicians? There's your answer, fellas. Vote for the Angry Exile - he promises not to do a bloody thing xD

Enjoy your beer, Dave. Presumably if you get off your dial and fall over it's the responsibility of the bottle shop, the brewer and the farmers who grew the barley and hops.
"But we can see that's a two seat ute." Hmmmm - I suppose that 2 seat pick up (as us Poms would call it), has something more than a 4 pot diesel under the bonnet? To be clocked at 150mph I guess it would be a 6 litre V8 petrol.

Having seen the way they hurtle round racetracks, it probably could have gone a lot faster...
1 reply · active 737 weeks ago
Ah, I may have to write something about Australia's great contribution to the automotive world and why it should not be confused with the American pick-up, let alone something like a Ford P100. They are rather proud of it and if I don't step up to the crease I may be tarred and feathered and put on a plane back to Blighty. :)

And yes, the article mentioned it was a V8, and being that it's a Holden that does indeed mean a 6 litre lump. Limited edition models come with their own oil well. ;)
Don't worry - I was being mildly cynical. I have a 20 year old VHS tape of the James Hardy 1000 race at Bathurst, and just love the "laid back" way one of the drivers was giving a guided lap of the circuit to the viewers, during the race, live via a remote controlled camera. That was pretty advanced for those days, and included 2 way conversation with the studio. I swear the bastard had one hand resting on the open window whilst getting sideways over bumps on the downhill stretch....at 160mph!!!!

Mostly Holdens, Fords, and Nissan Skyline Turbo's, but also a spattering of European entrants including XJ Jags, and SD1 Rover V8's, which not surprisingly didn't last the race....

Post a new comment

Comments by

Related Posts with Thumbnails