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Cheers - AE

Tuesday, 5 October 2010

Tourist advice for travellers to Australia.

Do, do, do try not to get arrested in East Perth unless you like being surrounded by cops and repeatedly tasered. In the fucking custody suite at the station.
Nine police who surrounded an unarmed man at the East Perth watch house used a Taser on him 13 times even though he wasn't threatening them, the WA corruption watchdog has found.

The Corruption and Crime Commission investigation was part of a wider examination of WA Police's use of Tasers since their introduction in 2007, the majority of which were found to be reasonable.
Perhaps. I'm certainly prepared to believe that and I don't have a problem with officers using tasers or even their sidearms to protect themselves or members of the public. And I'm even prepared to believe that the guy was somewhat short of a sainthood.
Police said they tried to arrest the man on a Bayswater street after complaints of a trespasser sniffing petrol from cars, but he fled. They later arrested him after he ran into a stationary car on Guildford Road. He allegedly collapsed and became violent, kicking two officers when he woke.

He was taken to the watch house, where police attempted to strip search him. Police said he had previously been convicted of a number of offences including assaulting police officers, resisting arrest and common assault.
On the other hand all he was doing was just sitting there saying he didn't want to be strip searched and wouldn't let go of the bench. Is the taser supposed to be a tool for protecting police officers in the field or is it okay to use it as a cattle prod to shock, literally, into submission anyone who's doing nothing worse than being a passive aggressive pain in the arse?
"The man had been compliant, removing his belt and earring when requested by police officers. However, the man refused to comply with a strip search and held onto the armrest of the bench. One police officer kicked out at the man in an attempt to 'startle' him into letting go of the bench," the report said.
Because to me that's what they look like they're doing (you may not find this easy watching).



Do you wanna go again? Do you wanna go again?
I don't even want to watch it again, but in case you didn't that was said after he'd been shocked a few times, and it was by no means the last one he got. For Christ's sake, couldn't they have got two cops on each limb and gone from there? I mean what did police do before they could just repeatedly send electricity through people? Well, I suppose there was bouncing people off the cell floor, but surely they didn't do that to everyone. Still, I'm sure at least that was the worst and the interview was comforta...

No, I don't want to go again.
... Oh.

Joking aside I do seriously wonder how well I'd do in a police interview if I'd taken 13 shocks from tasers when they brought me in. After that I might be inclined to waive a solicitor, confess to pushing the iceberg in front of the Titanic and worry about court later... anything as long as it got me the fuck away from that bloody cop shop. I'm sure that wasn't the cops' intention but it's a possibility and it worries me, because if it can be done eventually some dodgy copper will do it. I'd hope that WA Police haven't got a single member who'd stoop that low but between tasering each other on purpose and maybe accidentally setting someone on fire they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to taser use.

And the other thing is that this kind of thing is changing my opinion of tasers. I'm never slow to criticise the police but in principle I'm all for giving them the tools they need to enforce the law (getting rid of a lot of unnecessary and illiberal laws would be far more effective a way of tackling incidences of over the top policing). Up until recently I've felt that that includes tasers simply because they're a less lethal, usually non-lethal, alternative to using a gun. But the reason why I'm now no longer sure is that these controversial taser incidents seem to be happening more and more around the world and I'm wondering if a cop with a less lethal option than a gun will be more likely to use it. I read somewhere that we humans have a kind of built in acceptable level of risk and so the more safety features are on a car the less careful the driver will tend to be as a result of 'risk compensation'. Could the same thing apply to a cop choosing between a baton, a taser and a gun? Any reasonable person, and I believe most cops probably are reasonable people and quite possibly the cops in that video are too, would be extremely reluctant to pull the trigger of a gun aimed at someone, but would we be equally reluctant to pull the trigger of something which while undeniably unpleasant and painful only very rarely causes a fatality? I hope that I would be as hesitant to taser as I would to shoot but in all honesty I'm far from sure. And I'm not sorry that I'll probably never find out.

Comments (24)

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Yes, of course, 'mission creep' describes it perfectly. Don't know why I didn't think to use the term.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Yeah, though elsewhere and without any possible reasons why. The mention of the loss of the police contract and that this might have been to do with his company supplying not yet approved taser devices direct to the police provides a bit more info than what I saw before.
I believe the same is true of the new extending batons, much harder to kill someone with than the old solid wood truncheon and subsequently much more likely to be used.

I also wonder if modern police forces attract people with certain personality traits, the very last type of people who should be policemen?
3 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
I'm sure you're right. Anything you can get a better swing with is likely to be more dangerous, but I don't necessarily think the cops shouldn't have them. The side handled type baton can be used defensively as well and the smaller steel extending ones (called an Asp, I think) might be suitable for plain clothes officers. But unlike tasers I think the more dangerous batons might, and I stress might as this is pure supposition, go the other way. If a cop is more likely to use a taser and less likely to use a gun because of the perceived difference in danger to the suspect then might they not be more likely to use an old style truncheon to wallop him than the newer and potentially more damaging extending batons?
Good point. I don't mind women doing any particular job as long as they're able (and the same for men) but it's weird that the police no longer feel the need for a minimum height while airlines still insist the trolley dollies can reach the overhead bins and shut the doors on their own. I suppose it was inevitable that the goalposts would move further apart once the police moved away from a single set of standards for the job in favour of one for each gender. The airlines have a business to run so they'll probably stick with the single set.

Still, at least nobody's giving tasers to PCSOs yet, eh?
adelaide girl's avatar

adelaide girl · 755 weeks ago

Two people dead from Tasers this week , no such thing as non lethal, just depends who is on the other end and how trigger happy they are. I think these are disgusting instruments that should be withdrawn right away , they are used to "educate" un co- operative people, not protecting policemen. We have a right to say 'no' , "i do not consent', 'am i obliged to' and question them when they think we are here to obey their commands They are equal before us in the law and i hope there will be full investigations into these worrying outcomes.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
adelaide girl, I agree about the lethal/non-lethal thing and prefer the 'less lethal' term that's now used. The point is, of course, that while if you or I or anyone else is hit with a taser we probably won't die there is a small chance that we will, and we might well be unaware that we are more at risk than someone else. More importantly the cop with the taser can have no idea, none at all. They just know that the odds are good they won't have a death on their record and their conscience and I'm starting to believe, as others already do, that that isn't a strong enough reason for them to think bloody hard before pulling the trigger. As you say, the danger is that they will be used to "educate" non-compliant people, and that's not what they were introduced for.

I'm assuming one of the deaths you're referring to is Tony Bosevski. I'm holding off on that one until things become a bit clearer. A lot of things went on and the reports are contradictory at the moment: he was tasered, he wasn't tasered, he was hit on the head, he wasn't hit on the head, he'd had 2-3 beers, he'd been packing them away, etc etc. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on was that he got a face full of capsicum spray, and that stuff has been implicated in quite a few deaths itself. Like the taser it's generally very unpleasant but not lethal, but now and again it can combine with other factors, e.g. asthma, certain physical restraint techniques used by police, to cause death. I'll probably blog it when more is known but right now it seems we could plausibly point fingers at tasers, capsicum spray, or cops getting physical, yet until the PM is complete we can't say that he didn't have a pre-existing and undiagnosed condition that could have killed him waiting for a bus. Innocent until proven guilty must also apply to cops, and in a sense even capsicum spray and tasers, though if I was a betting man I'd say it'll probably turn out to be a combination of factors and the capsicum or the taser will come in for a lot of stick.

I missed the other taser related death you referred to but I'd be interested if you've got a link. I've got another taser type device blog semi-teed up so I'm interested in all things tasery at the moment.
Moved reply to adelaide girl to where it ought to be.
Good post but I can't agree with "I'm prepared to believe that officers using tasers or even sidearms to protect themselves or members of the public".
I will never be happy with coppers carrying weapons that members of the public are not allowed to carry.
I'm not saying we should arm the public and then have then shoot coppers they don't like, I'm sinply saying the first option of defence should lie with the individual.
My recent post How to avoid smoking in 10 easy steps
(My comment was too long apparently?) If you are being mugged it's hard to phone the police and say "Bring tasers" but its easy to pull out your ASP baton and fight back. I have 2 of those batons; one by the bed and one in the car. I've had them for about 10 years and they have never been used in anger, however If I was caught with them I would still be in trouble. If a copper carries an approved weapon it is always classed as defensive. If a member of the public carries the same type of weapon it is always classed as offensive.<'i>
Coppers prove time and again that they cannot be trusted to be better armed than the public.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Bucko, I'm with you on both points, although you've slightly misquoted me. I said "I'm prepared to believe that," in response to the claim that the majority of taser use in WA was found to be reasonable. "[And] I don't have a problem with officers using tasers or even their sidearms to protect themselves or members of the public," is a follow up, and one that is not meant to imply that I think only the police should be allowed to do it or that they ought to be able to use a taser outside that envelope.

If you've read my fairly long blog on gun laws you'll know where I stand on law abiding citizens and the availability of guns, although I didn't make this point about police being citizens too. But I certainly agree that if police are to remain no more than ordinary citizens whose occupation happens to be law enforcement, as traditionally they have always been, then anything they can be trusted with should be available to any other law abiding citizen (underline 'law abiding', natch).

However, I feel all this is a slightly separate issue from the more narrow question of whether police use of tasers is escalating from the initial intent to have alternative to shooting suspects and becoming something occasionally used as a cattle prod for human beings. That was all I was really getting at in this blog.
Appologies for the mis quote, I was trying to shorten my comment and something got lost.
I was trying to say that I am not happy with coppers being armed with such weapons, even if they use them in defence of themselves or the public. Turning police officers into robocops with batman utility belts seems to elevate them in importance, above the general public and I think thats why incidents like this happen. If the law abiding were allowed to defend themselves and carry the same defensive weapons the police are, it would bring the police back down to the role of citizens with a specific job to do rather than some kind of overlords
My recent post How to avoid smoking in 10 easy steps
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
No worries, Bucko. I think we're pretty much on the same page as regards cops not being elevated above other citizens and citizens themselves being armed. It was just outside the scope of what I intended with this particular post, but the long one on gun laws was over 18 months ago and might be revisited in the not too distant future.
AE,

This is a "standing on the shoulders of giants moment.

I have nicked, reposted, and linked back to you.

We should be keeping a database of this shit. It is becoming far too prevalent.

Great post, thanks.

CR.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Thanks Cap'n. Good idea about keeping a record of incidents, though as I said to adelaide girl about the possible taser related death case ongoing in NSW at the moment there's probably a justification for putting the various CS/capsicum/pepper sprays in as well.
adelaide girl's avatar

adelaide girl · 755 weeks ago

The two deaths from tasers, are the man in Sefton, Sydney following a domestic dispute and the man at Sydney's St Georges League Club following a pub brawl. I still do not trust the MSM in reporting these incidents accurately and even less in the police investigating themselves.
1 reply · active 755 weeks ago
Thanks. I'd missed the news of the first one.
Stephen Brown's avatar

Stephen Brown · 755 weeks ago

I'm a retired police officer, I served for nearly thirty years in an armed Police Force. In that time I drew my weapon twice but presented at the target only once. I never fired my gun.
The use of a fire-arm in a law enforcement situation requires that an investigation into the rectitude or otherwise of the discharge of the arm was warranted. This procedure tends to keep officers on the straight and narrow as far as fire-arm usage is concerned.
Usage of the Taser, classified as 'non-lethal' appears to have escaped the investigative net thus allowing officers to use the weapon indiscriminately. This is manifestly wrong. Each discharge of a Taser must be investigated with the same rigour as the discharging of a fire-arm.
The Custody Sergeant, present in the movie-clip, has an an awful lot to answer for. Why on Earth did he permit that many officers to be present? The maximum number of officers present is no more than three. Any more requires the recorded assent of the Custody Sergeant. Any usage of force MUST be recorded.
The Custody Sergeant should be facing prosecution, as should ALL of the officers involved in this disgraceful scene.
And I'm a retired police officer. I have NO sympathy for the thugs shown in this movie-clip.
1 reply · active 755 weeks ago
That backs up what I was thinking about the difference between a firearm and a taser. When you've got a firearm aimed at someone pulling the trigger is a huge step to take psychologically, but it's also a big deal career wise for the police officer since there will be an investigation if only to reassure everyone that the use of a gun was justified. Pulling the trigger to activate a taser, particularly in this 'cattle prod mode', is much less significant both psychologically due to the relatively low risk and in career terms since investigations are not routine. Your comments re: the Custody Sergeant are also very interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that there'd be a maximum number of officers permitted in the area as a matter of best practice.
Marvellous. The Aussie police have always struck me as even lazier and certainly more corrupt than the UK bobbies.

So, how's that expat stuff workin' out for ya now then ?
1 reply · active 755 weeks ago
Not bad considering that Victorian cops don't have tasers so there's no scope for anything similar in this part of the country - the same can't be said for much of the UK (or most of the rest of Oz since tasers are standard issue in a majority of states). We haven't had an Ian Tomlinson type incident lately, they haven't bounced any pint sized middle aged ladies of any cell floors, they haven't dragged any elderly men from their cars having first smashed the windows in, and they don't suspect everyone with a camera of being about to explode. Nationally there's the point that Brussels hasn't just taken over the financial system having already taken over so much else, the entire political establishment hasn't just closed ranks on gone back on a referendum pledge that all main parties made, and the result of which is that the country I left a few years ago doesn't actually exist any more in a meaningful sense. The national debt here is fairly manageable, the currency is pretty healthy, fuel is down to about 70p a litre, employment levels are okay, we haven't got CCTV nearly fucking everywhere, nobody's spent 13 years passing a series of enabling acts that Mrs Queen sat there and fucking signed despite her oath - the one function of any real value she had left - and we don't have a newish government that's become worryingly silent on the issue of repealing all that shit. And on top of all that it's nearly summer.

So the expat stuff is working out just fine, really. It's no utopia and some of the bureaucracy is pretty annoying (same can be sad for the UK though), and I have to say that Aussies in general are not the independent minded free spirited folk I thought they were, or certainly not as much. But for all its faults I still rate it above the country I left, which as I said doesn't really exist anymore anyway.

But of course none of that's what I moved here for in the first place. Life in Britain vs life in Oz really weren't a significant part of my decision - staying with Mrs Exile was nearly all of it. Had she been Austrian I'd probably be doing my ranting in Vienna and trying to get by in very fractured German.

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